SmugMug Source is a new, AI-powered Raw file management service from SmugMug (2024)

DonMacAskill

This is simply not true. Prove it.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

TonyF64

SmugMug saved Flickr. Without them, all of Flickr would now be gone.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Nyalgy Bubu

CORRECTION: It looks like most of us HAVE forgotten SmugMug's broken promises...

Jul 15, 2021permalink

JackM

Wait, you think you're entitled to a free cloud backup system? For free? You have a right to someone else's work?

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Nyalgy Bubu

Where did I say I thought I was entitled to anything?

What I objected to was SmugMug out and out lying to Flickr users.

SmugMug, before buying Flickr: "We have no plans to make any changes to Flickr' existing free tier accounts"

SmugMug, one nanosecond after buying Flickr: "Give us some money or get the hell out of here, you free-loading sh*ts!"

So, as I eloquently said before; "SmugMug can go and f**k themselves" --not because I think I'm entitled to anything from them. But because they deliberately lied about what they had planned for Flickr, before they took it over.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

We didn't say anything like that.

Luckily, the Internet has a memory, so you can go read and see exactly what we said, rather than just making things up. We were explicit that we *would* be making changes on day one, especially with an eye to making Flickr cash flow positive and profitable, so we could breath new life into it and ensure it would be around forever.

Here's what I said on the very first day, and have continued to say: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2018/04/20/smugmug-buys-flickr-verizon-oath/537377002/

Do you have any links where I said anything different?

Jul 15, 2021permalink

JackM

Let's see a link, madra. Or are you talking out of your a-h again?

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Nyalgy Bubu

>Luckily, the Internet has a memory

Isn't it just?

https://www.cnet.com/news/flickr-future-under-smugmug-control-what-you-need-to-know-faq/

SmugMug costs money. Is this the end of free Flickr accounts?
Emphatically not.

"Flickr's free accounts are foundational to its community of influential and engaged photographers. We are not making any changes to Flickr plans or rates at this time," SmugMug said in a tweet. And in a Quora post, MacAskill added, "We are committed to a huge, healthy, vibrant community of people using the free plan."

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Nyalgy Bubu

And...

https://gizmodo.com/flickr-takes-another-sad-turn-gets-bought-by-something-1825432997

In an FAQ about the deal posted by SmugMug, the company said that it plans to allow Flickr to continue to operate as its own, standalone platform. Existing Flickr accounts will continue to work same as they ever have, both for free users and Flickr Pro subscribers. SmugMug did note that over time, it will migrate Flickr onto SmugMug’s technology infrastructure and will port user photos over to the platform as part of that move, but the photos will remain accessible on Flickr.

Although strangely enough the SmugMug FAQ linked to from that article:

https://www.smugmug.com/together/faq

now goes to a '404 Page not Found'.

But, as you so rightly point out, luckily the internet does have a memory:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180421221925/https://www.smugmug.com/together/faq

Jul 15, 2021*permalink

Nyalgy Bubu

https://web.archive.org/web/20180421221925/https://www.smugmug.com/together/faq

"Will Flickr continue to offer a free version? Will Flickr’s price change?
Absolutely. Flickr’s free accounts are foundational to its community of influential and engaged photographers. We are not making any changes to Flickr plans or rates at this time. We’ll let Flickr Pro customers know if that changes."

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Nyalgy Bubu

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/02/flickr-delete-millions-photos-reduce-allowance-free-users

Flickr to delete millions of photos as it reduces allowance for free users

Photo-sharing site to limit free storage to 1,000 images as part of revamp under new owners

Flickr, which was bought from Yahoo by SmugMug, will delete excess photos and videos on free accounts from February 2019.
Flickr is to delete millions of photos from the internet, as its new owners attempt to sustain the photo-sharing site after its purchase from Yahoo earlier this year.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

Thanks for the links. They basically confirm what I've been saying.

I'd still like to see the links where you got "SmugMug's broken promises not to do away with 'grandfathered' accounts' free storage" (we never promised this) and "holding ex-Flickr users to ransom" (never happened) and "SmugMug, one nanosecond after buying Flickr: "Give us some money or get the hell out of here, you free-loading sh*ts!"". (we never did this, either, and certainly not one nanosecond later). None of those statements are true.

As promised, though, and thanks again for the link, we do have a "huge, healthy, vibrant community of people using the free plan" so we clearly didn't kick anyone off. We're the world's largest photography-focused community, which would be impossible without many, many millions of active free accounts.

FYI, we have yet to delete a single photo, either. We were afraid we might, which is why we made the announcement, but so far, it hasn't been necessary.

Jul 15, 2021*permalink

aiphoto1980

No connection to smugmug, besides been a smugmug user for more than 10 years and have no complains at all...smugmug has been an awesome service and they saved flickr.

I guess madra likes working for free... another idt who thinks everything must be given for free....

Jul 20, 2021permalink

JackM

How do you manage your offline storage? How do you know when to migrate to a new drive before the old one fails? How much does that cost you? What would be the emotional cost if a drive failed before you replaced it?

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Glen Barrington

If you are addressing me, I manage my online storage via ACDSee, it functions and integrates well with OneDrive, in some ways even better than with ACDSee's own integrated proprietary cloud storage.

As far as HD failures, go. I replace the external HD every 3-4 years or so. I'm a low volume photographer so my external HDs don't fill up fast. If the old External HD still has life in it, I store a final Bkp on it and put it on the shelf. I use the ACDSee backup module, nothing fancy but it is capable of managing its own backups,even to CD backups

As a retired DBA, whose job depended on never losing data, I think a combination of cloud and local storage is ideal.

If I am ever in a situation where OneDrive AND my local HD have failed, I suspect I'm in a lot more trouble than unrecoverable photos.

Jul 15, 2021*permalink

JackM

How would you manage this storage? How do you know when to migrate to a new drive before the old one fails? How much will that cost? What would be the emotional cost if a drive failed before you replaced it?

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Roman Korcek

@JackM
You migrate if one drive fails. Or you use three drives if you wish.
The migration will cost one drive.
If a drive fails before you replace it the emotional cost is zero, as you still have the other drive(s).

How do you know when to migrate to a new cloud provider before this one fails? How much will that cost? What would be the emotional cost if a cloud provider failed before you replaced it?

Jul 15, 2021permalink

JackM

If I had two backup drives and one failed, I would replace both immediately, because the other one is probably near EOL too.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Roman Korcek

@JackM
Sounds like a plan!

Jul 15, 2021permalink

JackM

I mean I guess you could only do the one, and just keep leapfrogging. The point of a cloud service is that you don't have to think about this. I think the likelihood of an entire cloud service failing is pretty slim.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Roman Korcek

@JackM
Unless it gets shut down and its servers seized overnight because someone uses it to store illegal content or the like. Can happen at any moment without any forewarning. I trust the cloud much less than my local backups, but it's better than nothing.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

JackM

It really is.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Nova Strict

agree, their support is top-notch.

Jul 17, 2021permalink

kaipr

I'm pretty sure smugmug spends more time and money to keep the files secure than most individuals would. There have been quite some "accidents" with some NAS in the near past for example.

Pure (encrypted) backup is probably another use case not targeted by smugmug. You can either have full security with encryption or convenience (easy access from everywhere, previews, link to JPG etc), not both.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

HowaboutRAW

kaipr:

You've not really explained why I'd want to keep all of my raw files on a cloud.

Note my qualifier "all".

I can certainly see transferring say 1500 raws from my trip to Peru to the cloud while I'm still in Peru (of elsewhere) and then when I return to my home country (say the USA), I can download the files from the cloud and I don't have to worry about losing cards or having my photos picked through by customs. But in that instance, I can just use Google Drive.

I don't doubt for a second that SmugM makes some effort at cloud security. But above I didn't question SmugM's capacity at basic PW management.

The reason I'd demand that the files kept on the sever be encrypted (so similar to PWs and bank account numbers stored on a server) is that I don't want SmugM or some other party viewing those raws.

Link to jpeg, huh? How would that be different than Flikr or some other online posting forum for photos?

Jul 14, 2021*permalink

DonMacAskill

Your photos, including both SmugMug (JPG, GIF, PNG) and SmugMug Source (RAW), are encrypted at rest and encrypted in transit.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

marc petzold

Exactly. This time, i thought yesterday the same. Why to put your very own, RAW Files into some Cloud? Copyright left...one does have a thought...i'd store my Memories only locally onto my own Harddrives.

And no, especially i don't want to edit my Files into the Cloud, via Browser and some Web App. Just look, watch what FB Developers are doing...by the way, no offense.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/gastbeitrag-von-gabor-steingart-facebook_id_13493572.html

Peace. Good Light.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

falconeyes

Can an editor please mark DonMacAskill's responses? Thanks.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

marc petzold

Can someone please stop Carmine Don Falcone Responses? thanks. Some Guys are playing here like they're the Boss and mocking others.

I just posted what is a proven fact - nothing more, nothing less. No offense.

Good LIght.

Jul 14, 2021*permalink

HowaboutRAW

DonM:

Good to know.

Thank you for explicitly stating that.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Glen Barrington

I like it, for someone who travels, it can be convenient. But, it is only smart to have a non-cloud local backup at home.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

HowaboutRAW

Glen B:

Right, for travel, but why not just use a GoogleDrive account?

And note how I said in my original comment: "all of".

As long as it's secure, and the servers are maintained, I don't see any particular problems with temporary cloud storage, or even cloud storage as backup to local backup drives that you control.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

JackM

Isn't GoogleDrive limited to 15GB before you have to pay for it? And isn't that space shared with your whole gmail account too? That's my understanding.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

camerons

@DonMacAskill if you're still reading these comments, can we please get 2-factor authentication for Smugmug accounts?

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Glen Barrington

@howaboutRAW See my other posts here in this tread.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

HowaboutRAW

JackM:

Right, but you can have as many Gmail accounts as you like.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

Yes, we're working on 2-factor authentication. (I have 2-factor already on my SmugMug account, for example, but it hasn't been rolled out to customers yet).

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Photology Ltd

Don — for 2FA, please allow use of tools like Authy instead of just text codes

Aug 2, 2021permalink

JackM

HowaboutRAW:

That's not a practical workaround, now is it. And as always with Google, YOU are the product, so it's not like you're getting anything for free.

Aug 2, 2021*permalink

HowaboutRAW

JackM:

It's plenty practical to have 3 Gmail accounts.

And more important, 15GB of storage space is a significant amount of stills raw files--unless you're shooting 100MP sensored cameras.

Aug 2, 2021permalink

JasonTheBirder

While good to know about a company, and it's useful information to choose one over the other, NEVER assume your files are safe with any solution. Have multiple. A couple onsite, a couple offsite. Offsite also does not have to be in the cloud, and it could also be an encrypted drive in a climate-controlled storage locker.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

Breakfastographer 2

My point is, who uploads their files to get photographer-centric features? You have those on your desktop. The primary purpose of cloud storage is to have a backup with a different set of attack vectors than your drive(s) at home.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

SmugMug CEO & Chief Geek here.

FYI, SmugMug Source, like all of SmugMug, is built on AWS (Amazon) and leverages their storage platforms. Every RAW uploaded to Source is stored in multiple datacenter in each of two different geographical regions (different US states), so your photos should remain safe even if a natural disaster like fire, flood, or hurricane takes one region and all of its datacenter out. Each storage region has eleven 9s of durability (99.999999999%). Put another way, if you uploaded a billion photos to us, AWS would likely go more than 100 years without losing one. Since that's per-region, the odds are even better that, with multi-region storage, it will be extremely rare.

That being said, I think keeping a local copy, or copy on some other platform, is super smart. If you know how to do so, and can afford to, you probably should. If not, and you must choose a single solution, we're probably the best in the business and I promise we'll work hard to keep them safe.

Jul 13, 2021*permalink

Glen Barrington

If you can think of a disaster scenario, then you need to plan for recovering from it. Even the less likely ones. It's always the stuff that you don't think could possibly happen that bites you in the Butt.

It's the stuff you PLAN for that is no big deal.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

falconeyes

@Glen Barrington
> If you can think of a disaster scenario, then you need to plan for recovering from it.

Not exactly. One always has to balance risk and benefit. Otherwise, I'll spend the rest of my live to plan for recovering from the collapse of the current vacuum state of the universe ...

Aug 3, 2021permalink

Breakfastographer 2

You'd be surprised.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

Gannon Burgett

@Aeronice: That rare breed of photographers who use Microsoft Paint to edit their images.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

Glen Barrington

I suspect they are using the AWS format definitions, so whatever Amazon can store on Prime, SmugMug can handle.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

We do find and link RAW + JPEG. :)

Jul 13, 2021permalink

Mitrajoon

Why every time I click on an image I get a popup trying to sell me something or some service. You can't opt out of these and worse, can't even close them.

I've been with SmugMug almost from the beginning but have downgraded from Pro to Basic because of forced changes like this. Transitioning after so much investment is painful but I think you are becoming increasingly dictatorial towards members.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

I'm sorry to hear that you're experiencing that, but we really don't upsell much on our platform. You're our customer, we're thrilled you're paying us, we certainly appreciate it, and we'd hate to drive you away. (We also don't have much to sell - this is our 2nd add-on in the 19 year history of the company). Would you mind explaining what you're seeing in the product that we're trying to sell you?

(Funnily enough, we most often hear from customer who are upset that we didn't tell them about all the advanced features on the higher-priced accounts... because we have never, ever, upsold someone from a low-priced account to a high-priced account in the product)

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Krummj

That's great it links the raw and Jpeg. I hope the process is improved from now. Right now I can use the Lightroom smugmug plug-in to link them in the Lightroom catalogue to my smugmug files, but it then gets confused by "versions" and asks me to pick the right ones, and that can take days to finish with my huge catalogue, so I give up.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Mitrajoon

Don,

First thank you for being responsive.

The current popup starts out: Watch the current SmugMug Film...

Ironically, I went to copy and paste the rest of that ad and another popup appeared, this one offering a free ebook. It is so irritating!!! You currently cannot get rid of these.

You can clear this but every time I click on an image the same popup shows, sometimes covering something I want to see.

a) I should be able to opt out of such popups or b) at least close them once and have them closed for the entire session.

Jul 14, 2021*permalink

Krummj

Don it sounds like your browser might have some kind of malware forcing popups.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Mitrajoon

Just to be clear, these are advertising SmugMug products and services.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

As far as I know, we don't do popups like this anywhere on our service, and never have. Especially when you click on an image as you describe. I've been trying to find somewhere on my account where this happens and just can't find it.

It sounds like you may have some browser plugin or malware that's causing this?

Would you mind sharing some URLs where you're seeing this behavior, and describing exactly where you're clicking that causes a popup so I can see if I can reproduce it?

Thanks!

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Mitrajoon

I just signed in, clicked on the first image that came up (https://www.smugmug.com/app/photos?imageKey=rqg5ptx) In this case, I actually got two popups. These are SmugMug branded ads. I'd be happy to send you a screen shot. Just PM me and let me know how to do that.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

Thanks for the reply. That absolutely should not happen. (And never should have!). I'd love screenshots. PM incoming. Thanks again.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

EJ Fudd

Mitrajoon
your web browser is tracking you, seeing you on Smugmug and then gving you pop up ads?? that I think is your issue.
I get b&h popup ads when I am not on their site..

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Mitrajoon

These are SmugMug ads for SmugMug services. In any case, Don has graciously offered to look into this.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

MDNL35

May be referring to CaptureOne's Session that keeps all adjustments together in a subfolder of the original images.

Impressive to support such a specific file structure if true..

Missing is RawTherapee (.pp3)
And Darktable, but i don't know if it has any sidecar files.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

MikeRan

Yeah the session this is basically sidecar files but C1 doesn’t seem to officially acknowledge that those session files are all you need to restore your edits (they are). C1 says if you want to export tour edits in a standalone file you need to make a massive EIP file which is effectively a zip file with the original raw file and the sidecar file.

Kinda silly.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

h2k

Sounds totally convincing 😉

Jul 13, 2021permalink

HowaboutRAW

semorg,

Being dedicated [digital] photographers, doesn't mean the servers are secure, or that the interweb connection is always superfast.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

sirhawkeye64

I've used them. Once they can make their site more user friendly (ie. not have to include the Smugmug branding everywhere, even on paid plans, I would return). But I had tried to set up a store once (a few years ago) and the check out page advertised that it was being hosted under Smugmug, which I sort of disliked. For sharing of photos, it's fine, but if you intend to sell anything, I would look elsewhere. Otherwise the service is OK.

(This may have also changed in recent years, but I haven't tried again since that time, which was a few years ago...)

Jul 13, 2021*permalink

DonMacAskill

We used to allow the removal of all branding many years ago. Customers of our customers (those buying prints & gifts from our Pros) got confused, and started reporting their credit card charges for things they'd actually received as being bad, resulting in chargebacks. We put the branding back in, but made sure to highlight our customers' brands first and foremost, while acknowledging that SmugMug is the company that will handle support, returns, and you'll see on your credit card statement.

It's not unusual to see other store platforms be co-branded for this very reason, so that's what we've stuck to, and largely our customers, and their customers, seem to be happy with the compromise.

We do continue to refine and improve it, so you might want to give it another try. I'd be happy to have the conversation about what doesn't work well for you with our current approach so we can learn & improve.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

sirhawkeye64

I'd have to check again and see what changes have been made since I stopped using the service. In reality, I only really sell through word-of-mouth as I have a local lab that does printing (I don't really sell digital files anymore, and never really did sell that many to begin with).

And since I've sort of not been selling through a website, I've taken up Wordpress with some templates as it gives me more control over things.

Jul 13, 2021*permalink

semorg

WOW! great to see @DonMacAskill the CEO of smugmug replying to comments and engaging with user feedback.

Jul 13, 2021permalink

PGrGr

Hi Don. Great to you have your input on this discussion!

I wonder whether the problem is an American English/English English thing?

Over here, the word "Smug" means self-satisfied or conceited. It can only ever have negative connotations. Whilst the word "mug" can be used as slang for "face", in the context of photography, it brings to mind a "mugshot", a word which is most commonly used to describe the photo the police take of someone once they've been arrested!

I don't think these are the contexts you want to bring to mind with your brand.

In terms of alternative names, whilst I could dream up a bunch of suggestions for you, I recommend that you engage a brand consultancy for this. They will be able to help you avoid all kind of pitfalls. On the plus side, your logo is both recognisable and easily adaptable, so if you changed name, you could probably get away without a complete re-brand.

Hope that helps!

Jul 14, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

Thanks, I appreciate that perspective. (Might be worth reading the message I left in a thread below this one, too, since the origin story for "SmugMug" is funny and ironic).

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Nikonlinks

Only branding on my Smugmug web site is very small "powered by smugmug" in the lower corner. I'm ok with that. I can't remember how long I've been a Smugmug customer. Always happy with the tools.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

PGrGr

Agreed. As a fully paid up Sumgmug user and big fan of the service, I think the name stinks!

Jul 13, 2021permalink

jaiyenyen

I have to say the name puts me totally off the product. I haven’t a clue how good or bad the service is but I won’t even look because the name shouts untrustworthy.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

DonMacAskill

I'm genuinely interested in this. We've been in business for more than 19 years, have millions of paying customers, many of whom love the name, but there are some that don't.

Do you have suggestions of names that you would like more for the service we're trying to sell? I'm happy to hear real examples or made up ones, but mostly I'm just looking for what you'd like to see directionally so I can better understand what a better name might look like.

Thanks!

Jul 14, 2021permalink

lescrane

Don, I complained about the name yrs ago in some of your forums. it's the reason I like to keep the branding off my pages. never liked the logo or cutesy name. No offense, clearly it's something you are attached to as founder. How do you tell a father to change his baby's name? very folksy and cute like flickr, snapfish, .fly, etc but if you're catering to pros or wannabes /"serious" amateurs(lol)it's hasn't got the right ring to it, "Hey, go to smugmug it's great". What's a smugmug? A vessel for coffee? doesn't tell the story or function. Obviously it's never been a "Deal breaker"to me. I like the look/ feel, the support service from your "heroes" is remarkably quick unlike any other service org. I had a Zenfolio acct. for an offshoot of my work, but ditched it ,consolidated everything here.. I've been w/you from the beginning, stuck thru a a few blips so I guess I'm "loyal". If u really want to consider rebranding, you'd get many ideas from me included.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

falconeyes

@DonMacAskill
I never thought about the name and the backlash the name receives is a surprise to me too. But better learn about it late than never.

Probably, a second brand name template would be technically feasible. Esp. as you already own Flickr which however, isn't a better name ;)

If I translate "smug mug" to German and back to English, using the best online translation service (deepl.com), I get: "conceited grimace". Not sure that's the brand name you anticipated ... (none of my customers ever wondered - but that may be due to their limited knowledge of English).

Just offer a serious name to serious pros. Like "photoncloud" or whatever ...

Jul 14, 2021*permalink

DonMacAskill

I'm not really attached to the name as the founder, I'm far more attached to whatever my customers want. I'd change the name, or add another one, if I thought it would thrill enough customers. So please do share your many ideas, I'm listening.

The funny part about this is that the name was an accident in the first place. It was mostly a joke, used as an internal codename, and a few weeks before launch, we were going to change it to something "real". When we announced that to our first hundred beta testers, they threw a fit and swore they wouldn't promote the product to their friends & family at launch if we changed it. They'd fallen in love with the name and insisted we stick with it.

Our entire existence we've tried to listen to customers first and ourselves second, so we listened, kept the name, and the rest is history. Millions of thrilled paying customers later, I guess it worked. :)

But we're always open to change and feedback. I'm listening.

Jul 14, 2021*permalink

coberg

Definitely not just you. I have been a paid user of the service for about 4 years and I still loathe the name and the suspicious looks I get sometimes when referring people to my photos on the site.

While I have no suggestions for an alternative, I'd prefer anything, even something neutral and unrelated to photography, rather than a name where the first word has the following synonyms: self satisfied, conceited, superior, complacent, self-righteous, priggish.

Jul 14, 2021permalink

TonyF64

Have you thought about using the Flickr name? Or maybe a variation of it like "Flickr Pro". There are probably pros and cons of using that name that I can't even thing of, but it is established.
BTW, I don't have an issue with the current name. Oh, and I'm also a customer.

Jul 14, 2021*permalink

DonMacAskill

We've certainly thought about it. Flickr already has a product called "Flickr Pro" so it'd have to be something else, but it's certainly food for thought. Thanks for the perspective and feedback!

Jul 14, 2021permalink

Lan

@Don: Thank you for taking an interest in our views. I far prefer the Flickr brand, so I'd go with something like Flickr+raw or Flickr+arrange. Flickr is a good brand, so you may as well leverage it.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

jaiyenyen

I had forgotten that Smugmug and Flickr was the one and same. I tried Flickr for a few weeks. In essence it should be a good service but I couldn’t put up with the enormous amount of very dubious service advertising

Jul 15, 2021permalink

Glen Barrington

HubrisMug? That's a joke, I suspect there are plenty of ways for a photographer to hide that they are using Smugmug if it bothers them.

Jul 15, 2021permalink

PGrGr

@DonMacAskill

I PM'd you through the DPReview system with a few more thoughts and suggestions. Hope that helps!

Jul 19, 2021permalink